Etisalat Blanket Ban On Flickr
It is painful to see Etisalat blanket ban on flickr. We had a long and draining debate about why some people wanted it blocked few weeks ago and why it shouldn’t be blocked on flickrcentral. Obviously, those who did not share my opinion felt strongly about it as to ask Etisalat to ban the website all together (which they were threatening to do from the start). Our concern was nudity appearing on the main page, and various flickr albums and we all agreed it was a bad thing and started to debate this with the rest of flickr community. Then, our flickr campaign divided into two where myself and many others felt that a simple 18+ filter and switch will do the job and will give those who do not wish to see nudity on flickr that option. Others felt that flickr should ban nudity all together and tried to impose their view on the rest of the users. The debate turned red hot and the administration joined and told everyone that a nudity switch and 18+ filters are being implemented. To me and many others, this addressed the point and ended the argument. To few however, it was insufficient and they really wanted westerners to see that nudity takes people to hell, and as long as flickr is up and running in its current way everybody in the world is going to hell too. The other side was also divided, some westerners felt that a filter and a switch will solve the problem while others thought that if you don’t like what you see, leave flickr, close your browser, shut down your PC, and go to bed – and don’t try to voice any worry, request, concern or demand. When I left the debate, it was running its 600th response.
Obviously those who were not happy with the results got to Etisalat first and convinced them that flickr is synonymous with “pornography”, “child abuse” or “the devil” himself and it should be blocked. The block sadly took effect in the last 24 hours and UAE people, the second largest flickr cluster are no longer able to use it. Thousands of dollars are now lost because of memberships paid in advance for years to come. Great, just great! For users who were the cause of this, read “The perils of not thinking” and try to estimate the damage you have caused.
June 23rd, 2005 at 11:18 pm
If someone is really disperate to use flickr and viewing photos, search google for flickr API and you will get few tools that will temporary help out of this problem
June 24th, 2005 at 12:14 am
in my opinion, its okay to close flickr coz the harm was more than the good. Yes i feel sorry for those “real” artist as u mentioned, but they can set a personal site, or to find another place 2 show thier phtos. u know what, i was sitting in my class whatching flickr, and i discovered that most the student in the class own a acount, so i ask them, u all dont like photography, so, why u all enroll, imagine they all told me that the ONLY reason is to catch a girls, or to add a new names to the MSN. I am happy that we’ve get rid of that place, to let people start their life again, after being addictet 2 show-off in flickr 4 the whole past year
June 24th, 2005 at 4:19 am
mn dubai, i appreciate what you say. but if etisalat was to block every new technology that is being misused by some people then they really ought to block every web forum out there, and blogs, and chat clients, and mIRC channels, and del.icio.us and the internet itself and shopping malls, and dhyafa street, and zayed street, and cars, and phones, and beaches, and schools and hospitals and everything else because it has the potential to be misused and some people do misuse it.
blocking flickr does not solve this problem, it moves it somewhere else - probably currently back to the many abundant forums out there.
Flickr was new internet theory at work. Different Internet “Social Networking” applications have been attempted and flickr is the only one that worked. People were educating the rest of the world about us on flickr. We were seeing the world outside through the camera’s of flickr photographers. Yes, we can read about the world, we can buy photo books and guids about it, but it is never the same as simple people you know, telling you about their town, villages, counties and how they get about their daily lives.
June 24th, 2005 at 8:22 am
You know, this could have been avoided if people didn’t hype over flickr.
You see - and I can’t see how an analytical person such as yourself failed to grasp this - people are sheep, period. They’ll just follow whatever trend the influential or popular group in the internet domain are into. Whether photography interests them or not, they got a camera and shot whateveryoneelseisshooting. And flickr is the perfect fertile ground to grow and nurture their weed.
Construction workers? Names on sand? Emirates Towers? Overdone is just an understatement here. If these amateurs are really looking to develop themselves, it’d do them a world of good to develop on their own, away from the gravity of trends.
Then there’s also trashy crowd, the narcissistic/materialistic crowd, the otaku (rabid anime fans) crowd, the email FWDs crowd, and folks who “borrow” others’ photos for quick comments.
Bottom line is: think carefully before you promote something. Sometimes, it’s best to leave the crowd in the dark.
June 24th, 2005 at 8:23 am
??? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???.
??????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??????.
June 24th, 2005 at 9:54 am
flickr bein blocked is one of the worst dicisions ever..
we had alot of brilliant photographers there…and YES we had a whole bunch of amatures… but the bottom line iS…ppl had something interesting to do in their spare time..be it in shots taken..comments made…or even just browsing..
Firebrand mentioned that some ppl just went with the flow wheather they were genuinely interested in photography or were just being plain copy cats…i dont really see any harm done there..
if they liked what they were doin, had fun..and maybe even found out some hidden talents..
shared opinions and interacted with ppl… then..Why noT?
traditions and religion must be born in mind.. thats the only point some ppl have failed to stick to…
Thats when Etisalat had to ban flickr since not everyone browsing the site was mature enough to use it properly.
i really hope that they open the site again..and find a better way in dealing with it.
June 24th, 2005 at 10:29 am
allaah eysam7 ely fbali =/
what’s flickr API ?!
would you please explain more!
is there any other way to login ! =/
June 24th, 2005 at 11:23 am
God I was so frustrated at the action they took and I talked so much about this issue..That I’m not in the mood anymore!
Maybe you should check this out { http://www.uaeflickr.com } ..
June 24th, 2005 at 12:10 pm
What a shame when people try to impose thier own views on the rest of the world. I’m against porn or indecent pictures in flickr and I would have been satisfied to see the 18+ or adult tag that would have prevented me or my famlity from seeing stuff that we didn’t want.
But forcing everyone in the world to see things your way or the the high way, is not civilized and is not the way of Islam. Let me say this again, what a shame….
Now for a shameless plug, try out my own alternative to flickr: Nawal.com, let me know what you think.
June 24th, 2005 at 12:31 pm
Flickr Ban II
It seems there is a lot more of back story to the ban than I thought. What a shame that a few people that think that the whole world should think and see the world as they do could actually prevent brilliant and talented people from expressing and shar…
June 24th, 2005 at 1:03 pm
That article is SO true. Although it’s really hard to admit, it’s true. And what’s so sad is that people don’t realize their actions.
Even though I’m not a flickr browsing person, I think it’s a really low blow for those who are talented. Low, low, low.
June 24th, 2005 at 1:11 pm
Firebrand, i agree with part of what you say. Indeed, many flickr members of this part of the world just copy each other and drain already drained ideas for their photographs (what is new - just look at the million and one pointless web forums and copy cat websites out there). But then the point still stands, people who will abuse a perfectly great project are everywhere and they always manage to find ways to twist the most legitimate things to the messed up causes they pursue. As you correctly pointed out, flickr is a trend, but it is a good sustainable trend that is useful in the majority. It should not have been blocked.
Abdulla, I could not agree more. I find it suitable to quote from the arilce i linked to above “The perils of not thinking”:
DxBinA, Flickr API is a collection of commands and programming functions that people of the internet used to build extra features on top of flickr, and build websites that are based on flickr services. A collection of flickr API’s can be found here on this link: http://flickrbits.com/bits/ some of them do allow you to get back some of the services that were taken away with the flickr ban.
Violet, i dont like the idea behind that website.
1. it is not creative
2. copying someone else’s work does not solve the problem
3. it is illegal (these guys didnt even change the name for god sake)
4. flickr is not just about posting photographs, it is a social networking program. That website seems to be just about posting photographs. And anyhow, there is no way it could be sustainable in its current form.
5. part of the beauty of flickr is the cultural interaction that takes place. even if you build a whole new flickr based in and for UAE only, it takes most of the fun out.
Hesham, the problem is once you say, i am happy with the solution they proposed to the nudity problem - people start talking to you in the name of religion assuming that just saying the word “Islam” or “God” makes the argument impenetrable - which is plain silly. I am against nudity, but i can not force everyone in the world to go against nudity. So instead of shooting them all dead, or banning them, i might as well try to explain my point to them and convince them with a sound logical argument.
June 24th, 2005 at 1:47 pm
hi.. u got miXed up! i wasnt the one askin abut the API.. BUT since its mentioned..i did try to log on and check it out…didnt get much tho… need to know what exActly has to be done.. is it possible to activate flickr thru thiS?
June 24th, 2005 at 2:39 pm
??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????
??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????
???? ??????
UAEflickr
???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ????????? ????? ???
???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????
??????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?
June 24th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
??????? ?? ????
??????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????
??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????
????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???????
June 24th, 2005 at 8:25 pm
El salfaa 6el3at bara3 el 7d 9ara7a, I’ve always told people how our country’s people in the United Arab Emirates are open minded. Actually, with all the good things happening in Dubai from buildings to landscapes, the country is getting a good advertisement (tourists etc.) and its also becoming to convince people how good the place is. But now, with a small stupid mistake like blocking flickr everyone thinks were nothing but Islamic extremists. Why do we all get blamed for a mistake we haven’t committed? Most of the Emarati’s had a window to show people around the world how good the country is and how were actually getting ahead in technology and all other fields. That includes freedom of speech and expressing your opinion..
Everyone is laughing at us for having a single ISP which has a word on all. If they say a site is blocked then bye bye just forget about it and go on. No! and a thousand No’s! A group of people goes to the ISP and asks them to block this website (flickr) because it has pictures of nude people. I’ve been browsing the website and I’ve never seen any, in order to get those nude pictures their speaking of you’ll need to do a search and go deep in to find those pictures! That selfish group of people would pay for this, unfortunately innocent people are also paying for these guys mistakes, we can already see that all over the news in the internet…. In addition flickr is filled today with the BLOCKED WEBSITE sign that all people around the world are watching. Of course this shows how much emirates love what’s happening! So disgusted of this…….
Bottom Line: a drug you take from the pharmacy could either cure you or kill you, in case you choose whichever its your own choice. You should be able to know the good from the bad and choose with what god has given us all the power to differentiate the brain! I think the banning of the website flickr was one of the biggest mistakes they’ve ever done.
If you want to block something, go on, forbid mobiles and stop any means of communication from malls to cars to satellites to streets. I’m worried one day yahoo will be censored or maybe internet will be forbidden. Well let’s wait and see what will eventually happen…..
June 24th, 2005 at 8:59 pm
???? ????
??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??????
??????? ????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??
???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ????????
????? ???? ?????
???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???????
???????? ????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????
?????? ??? ??? ??????: ????? ???? ?? ?????
???? ???? ????? ?????
June 24th, 2005 at 9:57 pm
I will miss some really good flickr names such as (s3ood) , (Immitiabile) , (UAE Latino) (Me) and other dear names :)
But come on ppl, those who might be harmed could be ur own brothers and sisters (some of the users were childs), so, it’s the community matter to protect them, or at least 2 try ?
I think most whom feel mad, should look further, and u will realize that the blocking for your own good, as I see ? be honest with yourself, if u really like photography, there are pro sites for that,
BTW, its seems nice idea 2 set a UAE flickr with rules and standards that fit our society, coz after all the uae ppl in flickr were stuck together more than the multi-national members, so, they wont miss the environment badly
Best luck 2 u all
June 24th, 2005 at 11:01 pm
Am really sorry about blocking flickr. I do agree that it had its disadvantages, which seemed for few people, to be a good & strong reason to block the site and abandon some very talented photographers to share their shots. I mean Etisalat should’ve made a bigger investigation about whats going on, they should’ve known that in a matter of days, Flickr adminstration would have implemented the 18+ security system to the site, they have gone through quite a rush in deciding to directly block the site! And as you said about what some of the westerners agreed upon, that whoever isn’t satisfied with the current atmosphere, should leave flickr and go to bed.. I think our fellows who decided to contact Etisalat should’ve done that instead of staying there and roaming around what makes them even more angry.. What to say, hope Etisalat realises how shocked they’ve mad many people now that they have abandoned one of the friendliest photo-sharing sites online.
June 25th, 2005 at 12:53 am
About http://www.uaeflickr.com .. I agree 100% ..I sent them an email earlier warning them about copyright and stuff..
And plus –> 5. part of the beauty of flickr is the cultural interaction that takes place. even if you build a whole new flickr based in and for UAE only, it takes most of the fun out.
I think this is the main point..
We shouldn’t hit back at Etisalat but making our own little mn3zel community..Instead, we should demand for what was unfairly taken away from us..
June 25th, 2005 at 5:40 am
Yahoos on the Loose
Many of you may be aware of how Yahoo! has decided to shut down Chat Rooms that had been used by pedophiles. Family advocacy groups got corporate sponsors to put the heat on the Internet giant and they responded. What
June 25th, 2005 at 8:18 am
There is a rapidly growing group of Flickr members that is calling for Etisalat to lift the ban. See http://flickr.com/groups/uae_ban/
June 25th, 2005 at 11:22 am
DxBina, I do appologise. Please forgive my oversight.
Garmoosha, tgoleen lemnooh hal kalam 3ad. allah ynawer 3alaina w 3ala ahalna bel 3elm
El naGa , For some reason, some of us are tought not to accept that the other side may have perfectly legitimate reasons for doign what they do. Since when did islam told us to force our believes on others? You think there is something wrong, fine, lets argue about it. lets talk. dont jump to the reward and do what you want before talking, it is not fair. I think Etisalat takes part of the blame, but more blame should burden those who took the effort to ocnvince etisalat.
Yass, thanks for joining the debate. I respect and welcome your views and I hope you are welling to debate them here. I think the arguement points you raise are:
We agree here and share the same concern. And that is precicely why we aruged and debated at length with flickr to implement a nudity filter which they kindly said they will do. So we agree here. No children, brothers and sisters will be harmed if flickr stayed because it is changing to accomodate our needs.
This point follows from the point above. We agree on point 1, and thus, logically this point is largely invalid. As flickr is implementing a filtering system, there is nothing to protect the community from. Having said that, there will always be a small minotiry of things that may escape the filter, but is that worse that TV? or magazine? or what you see on the street? I strongly think it is not. The potential to missuse anything is there, even if you are in your own house.
I do not see any argument points here. I will regard it as a personal opinion. I do not accept that “looking further” means “blocking flickr”. In fact, i think looking further means “flicks should not be blocked” and i do not accept that “blocking flickr is for my own good.” However, i respect your opinion and accept it as something that may or may not be right. :)
I like photography and i take part in other photography sites. People who took the effort to have flickr blocked will no doubt one day come accross one of these other portals i am a member of and take it upon themselves to see them vanish from the face of the earth. And that is why I argue against the moral correctness of blocking flickr. In addition, flickr implements the most robust API out there, a great virtual implementation of social networking theory, super cool projects, powerful tagging system, best photography tutorials I came accross, etc. Most of these are not available on other websites, and none of them I felt more comfortable using better than on flickr.
I dont think that is going to work. I refere to my response to Violet above for the argument against it.
nagmat_uae & violet, thoughtful insights, thanks. i;ve got nothing to add to them. :)
Jan Tik, while it is a delight to see fellow flickratis supporting our arguement, no one from around here will be able to see it or take part, thanks for the blanket ban.
June 25th, 2005 at 1:58 pm
Flickr is back!!..It’s unblocked!!!They finally came to their senses!!!!!! ^_^
June 25th, 2005 at 5:38 pm
They Came back to their senses _-_
June 25th, 2005 at 5:40 pm
Hi There,
I am an enthousiast Flickerite from Europe and I have followed the discussion pro and con a ban with some amazement.
What I find quite astounding is the ease that censorship is chosen and imposed upon everyone instead of stressing the importance of free will and moral choice for the individual.
Even those that are against a ban are arguing that explicit content could be banned by intricate systems instead of stressing the choice that everone has to view or not view this content.
Maybe I am just another immoral kafir that has been brought up with the belief in individiality and personal freedom, but what about free will to view or not view content like this?
Why not strengthen people in making choices instead of guiding them bllindfolded along the path?
You are not tied to a chair with your eyes glued open are you? There are a thousand ways besides to Flickr to expose yourself to images that you may find immoral according to your beliefs, whether it be Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist or atheist. So don’t look at them. Flick the swith “I don’t want to see this” and avoid the content. Discipline yourself by making choices instead of blocking a part of reality.
I am glad to see that the lively UAE community is back on Flickr. Some people will oppose the idea, but I kind of like the idea of pluriformity and I enjoy the contacts I have with some people from the UAE. And I don’t even need Voltaire for that. See you on Flickr.com.
June 25th, 2005 at 5:55 pm
ok So its back but without the picS? whats the deal with thaT? AND will they really keep flickr like that…a chat room analog?!
June 25th, 2005 at 6:54 pm
Glad the ban was lifted. DxBina, i am sure there is an error and that it will soon be fixed. I too can not see the photos , just the text, but i presume that has something to do with etisalat servers coming back to normal when a proxy ban is removed.
Nico, the censorship was not implemented out of the blue. Repetitive surveys showed that the majority of people want the block to be implemented because it protects many moral and religious values of a country that is experiencing extremely rapid transformation. I think the most recent survey showed 60% of the population thought the proxy ban is a good idea.
June 25th, 2005 at 7:21 pm
e3ashig, Thanks for your reply. I understand the decision took some time and is carried by a majority but still, to discard free choice of 40% of the population goes beyound me.
Moral and religious values are something very personal and should be defended with great vigor by the people themselves that believe in them. Not by a state imposed blanket ban.
I know that the word Democracy is being abused these days by nations that neither you nor me sympathise, but there is great wealth in pluriformity. I enjoy the wealth of making personal choices every day and I feel my character grows in that process. Rapid transformation of a nation cannot be a reason to take away that right of choice.
Deciding about right or wrong by taking polls about moral issues (or any issue) can be a dangerous thing. Even countries with a long democratic history don’t risk being burned by that highly manipulable method of direct voting.
June 25th, 2005 at 11:47 pm
Nico,
contrary to what many believe, many of us have not been raised as mindless machines with no free control on our thoughts. A lot of us here exhume individuality, opinionated postions on various issues including long standing and obselete traditions that nither belong to Islam nor to this day and age.
Islam is very much liberal when it comes to personal freedom if you take the early teachings and first few rulers, Things then became tribal and more culutural based rather than being based on idealogy that promoted free trade, tolerance and the right to express one’s opinion freely to anyone or any authority.
June 26th, 2005 at 5:22 am
Unless I’m going crazy, the blanket ban has been removed. I’ve been able to access the domain but not the images. This is incredible, Etisalat seems to have apparently listened to us. Crosses Fingers
June 26th, 2005 at 8:22 am
Nico, while I see your point and accept it, I sympathise with the policy makers around here for the dilema they are in is burdenning. How to do what both the majority and the minority want, if they want totally opposing things. Personally, I am one of those 60% who support the proxy ban on certain websites, especially those dealing with sex and sexuality and promoting them in away prohibited by our religion and those who insult blatently Muslim believes. Others obviously may have other reasons for supporting the proxy. Few years ago, I used to argue intensly against it as I lived in the west and absorbed westren ethics. But once you come back here, this is a totaly different place. There are other things at work here. Superimposed on this is the fact that this country is still young (1971), we have still a large (but declining) number of illiterate people who do want help and who accept it and who ask the people in charge to make those decisions for them. It may seem strage to a westrener but traddition have an extremely powerful grasp on people’s mentalities, at points even more powerful than politics, reason or religion itself. Statements like “Yes I know this is wrong, but I will do it nontheless because that is what we do - it is our traddition” are still strangely not rare and strong interventions are welcomed to break this bizzare cycle of behaviour.
I accept your point about polls not being the best method to please everyone. I also encourage debate and logical arguement as means to negating false believes. However, I think some protection to few fundemental believes of this society is needed - in a country where the local population, because of economic prosperity, declined to less than 25% - most of whom disperatly ask for protection to their values.
I do not think blocking flickr is one of those instances where a proxy ban is justified.
I know this all may seem like strage logic. Everything else has been attempted.
Some people argue that our ISP is using the ban to block competition. Etisalat are not saints, they are a commercial company and they do sometime, i think, abuse the proxy ban to their commercial interest. But who wouldnt! Every other commercial organization who have shareholders to please and cash flow targets to achieve will explore whatever law are available to protect them.
This whole proxy ban thing is evolving. The internet was introduced here in 1997, and many things have changes since it started. The most recent and significient chaneg is that the state protection of Etisalat (which used to contribute 2.7 billions to state funding) was removed and competition is now open. This will no doubt bring some changes to the way the internet service is delivered - and we all await for good things to happen.
June 26th, 2005 at 8:36 am
Arvind, it seems to be the case with everyone. I hope it is just part of the recovery process :s
June 26th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
It makes no sense, they just block whatever they think isnt suitable for others..
By doing this, apparently they’re “protecting” kids from going the wrong way..
im 14, and the only nude account i actually saw on flickr was from an 18 year old UAE guy, and that was only because i PMed him about it..
They think UAE people cant get porn? Its being sold in stores everywhere, its being sent via emails and bluetooth, they have programs to download porn from..
Even if they did block it, its not protecting us.. We can still get access to porn anywhere..
Everyone who got a PRO account, wasted their money because it got banned..
There are other sites that are exactly like flickr.. Why havent they blocked those?
There is nothing wrong with “Myspace.com”.. they just think its unappropiate [sp?] for kids because they can meet other people on it..
Isnt that how people meet friends? On forums and sites?
Its pathetic.. Because one guy [remains namelsss] thinks he can “Save” everyone by complaining? It just made everything worse..
I honestly want to rip his head off.. He thinks no-one knows it was him, because he deleted his pictures and everything.. Then he tries to act innocent and say that he’ll help get it back.. Helping wont change anything.. he’s still the reason they blocked it
Etisalat can see any IP address, and what they look at.. so basically you think no-one can see you.. but they know.. and they know who you are.. and they can just block your IP address..
Before they assume they can “Save the new generation by blocking flickr” they should stop selling porn in stores..
The end.. More later
June 27th, 2005 at 3:37 pm
What I don’t understand is this… I NEVER see pictures of naked people on flickr. I would have to do a search for it, so if I have to search, doesn’t that mean that you do too? If the people who don’t want to see nudity are doing a search to find it, then they are causeing their own troubles.
I just come from a way of thinking that everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs and should not infringe those beliefs on others (It doesn’t always work). But I really wish there was some place on this earth where politics and religion didn’t get in the way of people living together in harmony.
I’m just really sick and tired of the religious zealots of ALL factions (Babptist to Muslims and all the others too) deciding what’s best for OTHER people! Let me take care of my own soul!
(P.S. Glad to hear everyone is allowed back on flickr.com now!)
July 1st, 2005 at 8:07 pm
ahahaa now firefox’s site is also ban here. a screenshot is here
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3981/firefoxsiteblocked4mt.gif
January 27th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
in my opinion you should do the 18+ thing cuz its not fair for others that are’nt uploading the nude pics and the ones who do should be bloked u just blok thier page not the whole site
and blok the pages that rnt concluded in the middle east cuz there r some phsycos out there just need attention
thnx
January 27th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Al-shamsi, this is quite an old post. It was here to discus the FIRST ban on flickr by etisalat. Since that first ban, flickr was unblocked, blocked again, unblocked, and now blocked again.
sad really.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
pharmacy ship mexico pharmacy overnight mexico